[Webreports-uedesign] [Fwd: auto-translation]

Discussion:

Yishay Mor

2004-01-14 10:46:53 UTC

Jesper suggested we open this issue up for everyone to comment on.

In a nutshell, I suggested that there will be some kind of control on
each page, which would send it to be translated by an automatic service,
such as google or bablefish.
My suggestion was primarily based on the fact that I use these services
daily to read webreports written in other languages.

Jesper doubted the quality of the translation, and thought that not
linking to a service is better than linking to one that makes us look bad.

- Yishay

-------- Original Message --------
Subject: auto-translation
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:20:10 +0000
From: Yishay Mor <***@onetel.net.uk>
Reply-To: ***@ioe.ac.uk
To: Jesper Holmberg <***@dsv.su.se>
CC: Gordon Simpson <***@ioe.ac.uk>

Hi,

We want to start having kids comment on each other's reports. Since
everyone writes in their native languages, this means we need
translation. The number of reports is already so large that manual
translation of personal reports is not an option. IMHO, having a link to
a translation service is the least of possible evils. For short reports
it actually can be useful (I've tried it several times).

How much of an issue is it to add a translation box, say, under the
favourites? I think http://babelfish.altavista.com have a javascript
snippet you simply cut & paste..

best,

- Yishay
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Ken Kahn

2004-01-14 11:28:39 UTC

Permalink

I, too, find autotranslation helpful even when the quality is low.

We do have the problem that none of these free services deals with
Greek, Swedish, or Bulgarian. I.e. it is only of use for translating
between English and Portuguese or Italian. (Though Greek seems to be in
progress at Systran where I think everyone gets the code.)

Personally I've been getting into the habit of using a Google feature
where I just right click on a page and select "Translate Page". Others
may want a button on the page.

Regarding which service is best:

Original:
SOMOS DA ESCOLA DE VALE MILHAÇOS EM PORTUGAL. DAQUI FALA A RITALEXANDRA
E O GONÇALOTAVARES. QUANDO É QUE COSTUMA ESTAR NO WEBLABS?

Google:
WE ARE OF THE SCHOOL OF VALLEY MILHAÇOS IN PORTUGAL. DAQUI SAYS to the
RITALEXANDRA And the GONÇALOTAVARES. WHEN IT IS THAT COSTUMA TO BE IN
THE WEBLABS?

Babelfish:
WE ARE OF THE SCHOOL OF VALLEY MILHAÇOS IN PORTUGAL. DAQUI SAYS to the
RITALEXANDRA And the GONÇALOTAVARES. WHEN IT IS THAT COSTUMA TO BE IN
THE WEBLABS?

Identical.

Note this translation is less helpful than typical. Doubters should try
translating some of the Web reports -- they are pretty readable.

Best,

-ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yishay Mor" <***@ioe.ac.uk>
To: "WebReports" <webreports-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 10:46 AM
Subject: [Webreports-uedesign] [Fwd: auto-translation]

Post by Yishay Mor
Jesper suggested we open this issue up for everyone to comment on.
In a nutshell, I suggested that there will be some kind of control on
each page, which would send it to be translated by an automatic service,
such as google or bablefish.
My suggestion was primarily based on the fact that I use these

services

Post by Yishay Mor
daily to read webreports written in other languages.
Jesper doubted the quality of the translation, and thought that not
linking to a service is better than linking to one that makes us look bad.
- Yishay
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: auto-translation
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:20:10 +0000
Hi,
We want to start having kids comment on each other's reports. Since
everyone writes in their native languages, this means we need
translation. The number of reports is already so large that manual
translation of personal reports is not an option. IMHO, having a link to
a translation service is the least of possible evils. For short reports
it actually can be useful (I've tried it several times).
How much of an issue is it to add a translation box, say, under the
favourites? I think http://babelfish.altavista.com have a javascript
snippet you simply cut & paste..
best,
- Yishay
--
**********************************************************************
Yishay Mor
http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
**********************************************************************
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www.ioe.ac.uk/centenary
--
**********************************************************************
Yishay Mor
http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
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Yishay Mor

2004-01-14 12:33:21 UTC

Permalink

I'm confused. When I right click a page, I don't see that option. Are
you referring to a particular browser with a particular plugin? ;)

Post by Ken Kahn
Personally I've been getting into the habit of using a Google feature
where I just right click on a page and select "Translate Page". Others
may want a button on the page.

**********************************************************************
Yishay Mor
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Ken Kahn

2004-01-14 13:48:59 UTC

Permalink

I installed the Google tools into my browser. Highly recommended.
http://toolbar.google.com/

Best,

-ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yishay Mor" <***@ioe.ac.uk>
To: "Ken Kahn" <***@toontalk.com>
Cc: "WebReports" <webreports-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Wednesday, January 14, 2004 12:33 PM
Subject: Re: [Webreports-uedesign] [Fwd: auto-translation]

Post by Yishay Mor
I'm confused. When I right click a page, I don't see that option. Are
you referring to a particular browser with a particular plugin? ;)

Post by Ken Kahn
Personally I've been getting into the habit of using a Google feature
where I just right click on a page and select "Translate Page". Others
may want a button on the page.

**********************************************************************
Yishay Mor
http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
**********************************************************************
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www.ioe.ac.uk/centenary
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ylva fernaeus

2004-01-15 12:44:25 UTC

Permalink

I feel a bit confused about this discussion. I have always understood the
fact that children do not understand each others languages as one of the
most interesting challenges in this project, and also the main argument for
developing these new "language-independent" tools (dynamic models) for
children to communicate through.

The models that students create could (and should) in themselves be highly
communicative and interesting for students to share. Look for instance at
how the games in the playground project evolved as a direct result from
exchanging the projects across nations. As I understood it did the fact that
children could not describe their projects in words mean that the design
process got more focused on the actual workings of the projects. Knowing
that people will not be able to read your instructions can be a wonderful
reason for being more explicit in your design. Hence, language differencies
may actually enrich the process, and may not only have to be something to
try and get rid of.

However, I agree that it could be good to introduce some "language
independent" way for students to give feedback on each others projects. A
simple interface with pre-phrased comments such as: "I really like your
project", "I think I saw a bug", "I did't understand", etc might be enough
for this purpose? The producer of the project gets these comments (and
perhaps a modified version of his/her project) and the project continues to
evolve based on this.

My opinnion is that meanings always change when translating texts (whether
the translator is a teacher or a computer).

/ylva

-----Original Message-----
Yishay Mor
Sent: den 14 januari 2004 11:47
To: WebReports
Subject: [Webreports-uedesign] [Fwd: auto-translation]
Jesper suggested we open this issue up for everyone to comment on.
In a nutshell, I suggested that there will be some kind of control on
each page, which would send it to be translated by an automatic service,
such as google or bablefish.
My suggestion was primarily based on the fact that I use these services
daily to read webreports written in other languages.
Jesper doubted the quality of the translation, and thought that not
linking to a service is better than linking to one that makes us look bad.
- Yishay
-------- Original Message --------
Subject: auto-translation
Date: Tue, 13 Jan 2004 11:20:10 +0000
Hi,
We want to start having kids comment on each other's reports. Since
everyone writes in their native languages, this means we need
translation. The number of reports is already so large that manual
translation of personal reports is not an option. IMHO, having a link to
a translation service is the least of possible evils. For short reports
it actually can be useful (I've tried it several times).
How much of an issue is it to add a translation box, say, under the
favourites? I think http://babelfish.altavista.com have a javascript
snippet you simply cut & paste..
best,
- Yishay
--
**********************************************************************
Yishay Mor
http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
If this helped you, please take the time to rate the
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
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celebrating 100 years of excellence in education
www.ioe.ac.uk/centenary
--
**********************************************************************
Yishay Mor
http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
If this helped you, please take the time to rate the
http://svcs.affero.net/rm.php?r=yishaym
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-------------------------------------------------------
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Yishay Mor

2004-01-15 16:46:31 UTC

Permalink

Very well put.

I definitely agree with your last sentence. As a matter of fact, I
suspect that meaning is changed whenever it is transmitted as text, even
without translation. I also see you point about "language-independence".
I think that's one of the great things about ToonTalk, and for the
matter, about maths: a sequence is the same sequence in any language
(unless you use Roman or Chinese numerals, in which case its still the
same sequence, but ...)

Nevertheless, there's some text in the webreports that children (or
researchers) post. Some of it is explanations, some of it personal
impressions, some of it questions. Automatic translation gives funny
results, but in fact - precisely because of the common underlying
meanings related to the activities which we are engaged in - it is
understandable.

I'd like to keep this discussion at a pragmatic, rather than theoretic,
level. The Portuguese kids are working on the same activity sequence as
ours. They are publishing reports in their language, and I want our kids
to comment on those reports. How do we facilitate this?

best,

- Yishay

Post by ylva fernaeus
I feel a bit confused about this discussion. I have always understood the
fact that children do not understand each others languages as one of the
most interesting challenges in this project, and also the main argument for
developing these new "language-independent" tools (dynamic models) for
children to communicate through.
The models that students create could (and should) in themselves be highly
communicative and interesting for students to share. Look for instance at
how the games in the playground project evolved as a direct result from
exchanging the projects across nations. As I understood it did the fact that
children could not describe their projects in words mean that the design
process got more focused on the actual workings of the projects. Knowing
that people will not be able to read your instructions can be a wonderful
reason for being more explicit in your design. Hence, language differencies
may actually enrich the process, and may not only have to be something to
try and get rid of.
However, I agree that it could be good to introduce some "language
independent" way for students to give feedback on each others projects. A
simple interface with pre-phrased comments such as: "I really like your
project", "I think I saw a bug", "I did't understand", etc might be enough
for this purpose? The producer of the project gets these comments (and
perhaps a modified version of his/her project) and the project continues to
evolve based on this.
My opinnion is that meanings always change when translating texts (whether
the translator is a teacher or a computer).
/ylva

r***@sapo.pt

2004-01-16 10:23:42 UTC

Permalink

I agree with Ylva - we should use dynamic models to help children communicate
with each other. After all, kids don't read that much while working on weblabs.

My idea is that they want to read the minimal in order to understand what to do
or how to interact. So, maybe an option of several sentences is enough. If a
kid can choose between 5-6 sentences (and maybe not just one but more, so they
can say several things: like «I like you report» and «can you show me the
steps»). Maybe we should make the tutorial a rule of explaining work, instead
of writing.

I know that if there's an option to translate between languages, we will gain
something. Kids will be abble to understand everyting. But the translation has
to be good. On the other way, and since they don't like that much to read,
maybe that's more usefull for researchers (I can read what Ylva as written to
her students.) And, between researchers, I think that we have written the more
important documents in english, to share with each other.

So, if it's not very complicated to get a decent translation, let's do it. It
ift's very complicated, maybe we should open the discussion to the WL comunnity
to find out if this translation option is really going to be useful.

Raquel

But maybe the option of choose between

I think that artefacts created by the kids and

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Augusto Chioccariello

2004-01-16 17:35:07 UTC

Permalink

On Behalf Of Yishay Mor
Sent: giovedì 15 gennaio 2004 17.47
To: WebReports
Subject: Re: [Webreports-uedesign] [Fwd: auto-translation]
....
Nevertheless, there's some text in the webreports that children (or
researchers) post. Some of it is explanations, some of it personal
impressions, some of it questions. Automatic translation gives funny
results, but in fact - precisely because of the common underlying
meanings related to the activities which we are engaged in - it is
understandable.

Having a way of "understanding" the children description of their work
present in the webreports, is important to facilitate the discussion between
schools from different countries. For example, comments on "why this works
(or doesn't work) the way it should" might stimulate a discussion.

I'd like to keep this discussion at a pragmatic, rather than
theoretic,
level. The Portuguese kids are working on the same activity
sequence as
ours. They are publishing reports in their language, and I
want our kids
to comment on those reports. How do we facilitate this?

In my opinion it is a role of the researchers/teachers to monitor the
discussion (they are the primary users of translation tools) and support the
children in "reading" the other class work and discussing it.

-- Augusto

PS I would not add ways for easily calling a translation engine in the
Webreports site. As Ken mentioned equivalent features are already present in
search engines toolbar (e.g. Google).

Jesper Holmberg

2004-01-19 13:25:23 UTC

Permalink

The reason why I was reluctant to include the auto-translation in the web
interface in the first place, was that I find the translation provided by
the freely available tools horrible.

I look at some of the reports I have tried to run through these services,
and my view is that it is possible to get the general idea of the text if
you are an adult researcher who is motivated enough to understand the text,
and willing to mobilize a great deal of effort and creativity.

In my opinion, it is absolutely not good enough for a kid who has been
told he must communicate with the author of the translated text. At best,
it will result in hours of laughing over ridiculous texts; at worst, in
considerable frustration.

As Ken has noted, it is easy for the researcher who wants to use these
tools to integrate them into the web browser. Adding them to the site
would, in my opinion, add clutter to the interface, and moreover suggest a
service whose quality is abysmal, and hence reduce the perceived general
quality of our site.

Because of this, I would rather not add this feature to the site interface,
but encourage people to use the existing tools through other means.

Note however, that I'm not trying to sabotage anyone else's work. If we
reach the decision that we really want this added to the site, I will of
course implement it.

The fact that only a subset of the languages we use in our project is
covered by the freely available tools is a problem, but not a major
reason not to implement the interface, should we find it desirable to
do so.

Jesper

Yishay Mor

2004-01-20 10:12:57 UTC

Permalink

Jesper,

I find your arguments very reasonable. Still, I think auto-translation
may prove useful (for reasons I've mentioned, hence not repeated here).
The bottom line is, I believe, that we'll never know until we try.

Can we somehow pilot this? Can you manually add this feature to a small
set of reports, and track its usage? Or add it for a week & if no one
uses it retract it? Or, let the report editor decide is she wants to
include an auto-translate button?

Post by Jesper Holmberg
The reason why I was reluctant to include the auto-translation in the web
interface in the first place, was that I find the translation provided by
the freely available tools horrible.

True, but nevertheless usefull. If two kids are working on the same
activity, they can read through the amusing bits and get an idea of what
the other is saying.

Post by Jesper Holmberg
As Ken has noted, it is easy for the researcher who wants to use these
tools to integrate them into the web browser.

Um. ASAIK, only by installing a particular plugin, which is built for a
particular browser. In the school we work with, we do not have authority
to install it.

**********************************************************************
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http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
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Ken Kahn

2004-01-20 17:18:46 UTC

Permalink

I agree with Yishay that it would be interesting to try and see if the
translations are any help. But we don't need to change the Plone for
that. We could take 10 or 20 reports, run them through Google/Babelfish
and save the results. Then we can let the kids look at automatic
translations and see what happens.

Best,

-ken

----- Original Message -----
From: "Yishay Mor" <***@ioe.ac.uk>
To: "'WebReports'" <webreports-***@lists.sourceforge.net>
Sent: Tuesday, January 20, 2004 10:12 AM
Subject: Re: [Webreports-uedesign] [Fwd: auto-translation]

Post by Yishay Mor
Jesper,
I find your arguments very reasonable. Still, I think auto-translation
may prove useful (for reasons I've mentioned, hence not repeated here).
The bottom line is, I believe, that we'll never know until we try.
Can we somehow pilot this? Can you manually add this feature to a small
set of reports, and track its usage? Or add it for a week & if no one
uses it retract it? Or, let the report editor decide is she wants to
include an auto-translate button?

Post by Jesper Holmberg
The reason why I was reluctant to include the auto-translation in the web
interface in the first place, was that I find the translation

provided by

Post by Yishay Mor

Post by Jesper Holmberg
the freely available tools horrible.

True, but nevertheless usefull. If two kids are working on the same
activity, they can read through the amusing bits and get an idea of what
the other is saying.

Post by Jesper Holmberg
As Ken has noted, it is easy for the researcher who wants to use these
tools to integrate them into the web browser.

Um. ASAIK, only by installing a particular plugin, which is built for a
particular browser. In the school we work with, we do not have

authority

Post by Yishay Mor
to install it.
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ylva fernaeus

2004-01-20 10:20:35 UTC

Permalink

One thing that is missing at the moment at that might help students
understanding eachother's projects better would be that we translate and
describe the activities that children engage in so that at least everyone
can understand what tasks/ideas the projects refer to.

For instance, each webreport could contain a short text (written by the
teacher and translated to as many languages as possible) describing what the
task was.

I think this could help a lot for instance for understanding projects such
as the ones produced by our swedish kids during the autumn.

/ylva

Yishay Mor

2004-01-20 10:36:37 UTC

Permalink

I agree. Especially in the case of the Swedish reports, which are
unique, and for which auto-translation is not an option.
However, in other cases this might be less useful. We have kids in
several countries engaged in the same activity, and publishing
frequently. An example is the sequences topic, and the "guess my robot
game" in particular. Several groups are planned to start this activity
soon (or have already started it). In this activity, children will
frequently publish their challenge sequence or respond to others. The
main elements on the reports will be tt objects, which transcend
language. What needs translation is short accompanying comments, which
would probably make sense even if translated automatically. Perhaps an
auto-translation tool can be added to the game page template which is
used for this activity?

Post by ylva fernaeus
One thing that is missing at the moment at that might help students
understanding eachother's projects better would be that we translate and
describe the activities that children engage in so that at least everyone
can understand what tasks/ideas the projects refer to.
For instance, each webreport could contain a short text (written by the
teacher and translated to as many languages as possible) describing what the
task was.
I think this could help a lot for instance for understanding projects such
as the ones produced by our swedish kids during the autumn.
/ylva

--
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Michele Cerulli

2004-01-20 12:09:43 UTC

Permalink

Our policy here, with this regard is to translate tasks and activities how
they are presented to pupils, plus we are translating all the reports
produced collectively by the class, which are inserted in the plone using
the login "Classe2A" (see
http://www.weblabs.org.uk/wlplone/Members/Classe2A/my_reports/my_reports_index_html,
the translations are marked as such in the description of the report). The
translations are made by us researchers, and at the beginning of each
translation there is written that it is a translated document, with a link
to the original document, and a link to translation notes which are at the
end of the document.
We are working at setting up a well oiled machinery allowing other
researchers and students to see what is going on here, we still have to
work on it, but the process at least started, in a couple of days the main
activities brought forward till now will be translated.
Finally, I'd like to report on the fact that our pupils (without us
requiring or mentioning it) prepared a presentation for their class, and
prepared it in english; they prepared it as an activity of english
classes...I think this somehow denounce their will to participate to the
community. You can find their presentation here:
http://www.weblabs.org.uk/wlplone/Members/Classe2A/my_reports/Report.2004-01-19.2746

Ciao, Michele

I agree. Especially in the case of the Swedish reports, which are unique,
and for which auto-translation is not an option.
However, in other cases this might be less useful. We have kids in several
countries engaged in the same activity, and publishing frequently. An
example is the sequences topic, and the "guess my robot game" in
particular. Several groups are planned to start this activity soon (or
have already started it). In this activity, children will frequently
publish their challenge sequence or respond to others. The main elements
on the reports will be tt objects, which transcend language. What needs
translation is short accompanying comments, which would probably make
sense even if translated automatically. Perhaps an auto-translation tool
can be added to the game page template which is used for this activity?

--
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Yishay Mor
http://ioewebserver.ioe.ac.uk/ioe/cms/get.asp?cid=4381&4381_0=7303
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